ADAM AND EVE: THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT FOUND?

WHAT IS THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT?

The Adam and Eve account of Genesis 3 is the first epic story of love, intrigue, betrayal,  power and death in the bible. It is so well written and displayed such colour and effective use of figurative speech and of anthropomorphism that even today, many scholars are still baffled and at odds about its true meaning….if any.

By the way, have you ever wondered what was the forbidden fruit or if a snake can really talk? Can God really walk? Even more concerning, what is  meant by being “made in god’s image?

To refresh the memory, let’s revisit the Genesis 3 story. See picture and note that Adam was with Eve when she ate the forbidden fruit so the idea of infidelity is a bit stretched.

Genesis 3:1-6 NLT. At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.” (Genesis3:7)

 

IS THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT A REAL FRUIT?

Naturally, to think the forbidden fruit is an actual fruit is logical.  After all, the bible said so and many scholars and “Rabbinic commentators variously characterized the forbidden fruit as a fig, a pomegranate, a grape, an apricot, a citron, or even wheat. The importance and potency of these fruits can not be denied but none has been proven to have any real extra super natural power, that would give extra knowledge or result in death.

An apple a day keep the doctor away according to a popular proverb but reality is, there were no apples in bible time. Apple was also considered as the forbidden fruit simply because during translation, in Latin, the Hebrew word for evil is malus but in Latin,  malus also means apple. ”

IS THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT SEX  OR THE VAGINA?

This one is hilarious if not erotic and maybe sad. According to this line of reason, sex is the forbidden fruit. Adam and Eve were told not to have sex as the day they do so they would die. However the devil seduced Eve, in front of Adam, and had sex with her. Eve then went and shared the joys of sex with her hubby, Adam.

Interestingly, the Serpent seeddual seed or two-seedline controversial religious belief took it a bit further and claimed that the Eve/Serpent sexual intercourse resulted in the birth of Cain, hence Cain was illegitimate and a bastard if not a “jacket”. This is so despite Gen 4: 1And Adam had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man. ” she said.

These could be nice scenes in “Days of our Lives” or other soap opera but the reality is such philandering and adulterous behaviour would be appalling in the Genesis.

Also note that according to the bible, Adam was alone when the lord first forbade him to eat of the the fruit of knowledge of god and evil. Sex requires two people, at least and the forbidden fruit could be eaten by one person.

Most importantly, man was commanded to multiply. Its difficult to tell people to multiply and then forbid them to have sex. Genesis 1: 28.  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it.

Critical, is the fact that sex cannot be forbidden as it is instinctual and occurs as if natural and without teaching or model.  Human beings were also made with sex organs that prompts them towards reproduction. Actually, maybe, the sole purpose for sex is to bring young ones as is obvious for all of creation with the exception of man and a few dolphin species. One can abstain from or restrict it, however

WOW.  Man does sex for recreation (fun) and stop its original intention of procreation (reproduction) by using their intellect to develop birth control methods such as “safe period”, condoms, pills, etc. An instance when the intellect can be contrary to nature and evil.

THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT AS REASON AND OWN WILL?

poster genesis 3 6 13

So, if it is not a real fruit nor sex, what was the forbidden fruit. Basically, thoughts are fruits. Your thoughts can conjure, plant and bear seeds and images that are literally out of this word. Your thoughts can let you become inquisitive and seek knowledge. Of course as individuals, it is okay to have thoughts but some thoughts are best left ALONE. Your deep rational thoughts that seek to reason, discern and determine time, things and events contrary to truth are forbidden fruits.

This simple and maybe naive view is that the forbidden fruit is “reason, thinking and freewill”. We have the capacity of intellect but we should not use it to pursue our vain ways. We should enjoy all our thoughts and the earth but no bother with inventions and intentions. Just as how insects, birds, animals and fish enjoy nature without trying to manipulate it needlessly. This reliance on nature or god was also expected of man. 

Here is a superb example of the Lord being upset at reason and self determination. Remeber the creation of the tower of babel: 

Genesis 11 . 1. Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar[b] and settled there.

They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.

So reason and intellect without the Creator’s guidance is forbidden fruit and leads to death and confusion.

Another problem with reasoning is that sometimes the things that the mind perceives intellectually are not intelligent nor the “truth” or even necessarily in harmony with the natural design of nature.

poster proverbs 3 vs 18

This is so since man is intellectual but not intelligent. Intelligence is an individual’s ability to acquire skills and knowledge and apply them while intellect is the faculty of objectively understanding and reasoning abstract matters. 

The amount of knowledge needed to make an intelligent and “good” decisions can only be done by an Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent being. Since man is far from being all knowing, all powerful and ever present, he is reduced to making intellectual decisions based on limited knowledge and eventually faulty reasoning. THIS IS DANGEROUS AND WILL RESULT IN DEATH.

poster genesis 3 22 - 24

In short, knowledge/reason is the tree of good and evil while wisdom is the tree of life. Although knowledge is good to have, wisdom which requires both understanding and knowledge is the greatest ideal and pursuit. The fruits of wisdom is better than the fruits of knowledge. One sustains while one kills. The problem is, one cannot gain wisdom without obedience and recognition of the order of life. Using time and effort to determine  and getting knowledge about life is a waste (death) as without understanding there can be no wisdom.

THE SNAKE IS YOUR MOST SURREPTITIOUS THOUGHT?

The idea that a snake spoke to Eve can be appreciated bearing in mind in the bible a donkey also spoke. Num:22:28: And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

However, the bible uses figurative speech and anthropomorphism a lot. In this case it was both figurative and anthropomorphic. Your mind and thoughts are like subtle yet dangerous animals in your head. Eve did not see a snake but was simply thinking and reasoning with herself. This colourful expression underscore the fact that eve knew that she was wrong to disobey but justified in the possible favourable outcomes. In short, she  wondered and even wandered away from “being subservient and restricted to nature’s way”.

Jesus puts this thought process neatly in Matthew 10: 16 “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves”.

MAN IN GODS” IMAGE

poster gen-01-26

Philosophers and theologians have debated the exact meaning of the phrase for millennia. Many argued that being made in the Image of God does not mean that God possesses human-like features as God is a spirit. Rather that the statement is figurative language for God bestowing special honor unto humankind, which He did not confer unto the rest of Creation.

These include mind, will and emotion and consequently the ability to think, reason and free will.

Although it would feel special to think that the Creator has two arms, two eyes, two ears and a head, the reality is that animals also have the same features and they were made before mankind. According to the Bible and Science, man was the last of creation, hence man resembles monkey and monkey resembles god if we subscribe to the physical image scenario.

REASON AND INTELLECT ARE MAJOR KILLERS OF HUMAN BEINGS

poster genesis 2

No doubt, we could argue that if man did not use up his intellect and try to control nature to his benefit life might be worse on earth. Man’s intellect created most of the food we now eat and taken for granted such as rice, corn, wheat, carrots, banana. Similarly without man’s reasoning and intellect there would be no factories, and internet, and cars etc.

 Despite these achievements, the day we begin determining our destiny we start to die. Today, chronic diseases are a major public health problem worldwide. In 2005, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated that 61 per cent of all deaths — 35 million — and 49 per cent of the global burden of disease were attributable to chronic diseases due to life style. By 2030, the proportion of total global deaths due to chronic diseases is expected to increase to 70 per cent and the global burden of disease to 56 per cent. These deaths are simply because we use our intellect to reason and try to determine our life style. 

Apart from life style diseases, many deaths are due to wars, ethnic cleansing, ill effects of technology, GMO related health problems. flooding, Electricity and gas related deaths etc. The reality is that hunger and poverty are a result of man’s reasoning and intellect. Religion was created by the Sumerians due to their reasoning and use of knowledge of the stars and astrology.

poster prov 3 vs 6

So that is the problem. A jealous omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent creator which made man in its image and likeness of intelligence and free will YET still insisted and required man to not use this free will and intellect for self determination, as the day man doeth such, man dies.

 

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14 thoughts on “ADAM AND EVE: THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT FOUND?

  1. Let me say that your presentation of facts and analysis is excellent.
    If the Bible was really inspired by God, then He didn’t do a good job. You’d think a whole God should know better than ‘write’ a manual whose contents are more often than not, subject to a thousand interpretations.

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    • Give thanks. Appreciated. You know, one way to look at it is that the inspired folks, sometimes, lean upon their own (mis)understanding and the readers too.

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  2. This article is wrong. Hunger and poverty, famines, and warfare, and stupid things we do are precisely due to a lack of reasoning, a lack of intellect, a lack of knowledge. And no, not everything we do is bad. We do a lot of bad things, but that doesn’t make everything we do bad. Actually we start to die around the age of 25, after we have reach our peak.

    Everything sucks because we’re too smart? Haha. No. Everything sucks because we are stupid.
    The reason we are stupid is BECAUSE we think we are smart.

    It’s because of PRIDE that Eve sinned.

    I am really getting tired of people who try to divide wisdom from intelligence. They try to twist words and say oh well wisdom is better than just intelligence. No, no, no. Intelligence wouldn’t BE intelligence at all if it was deficient in knowing. Knowing is wisdom and knowing is intellect and knowing is knowledge. To know something is to understand. The tree of knowledge is also called the tree of wisdom. It’s the same tree.

    Hosea even says My people perish for lack of knowledge. So knowledge isn’t a sin. But being a fool is.

    Here are several verses that debunk your claim that knowledge is the forbidden fruit:

    Proverbs 18:15
    An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

    Proverbs 1:7
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

    Proverbs 2:10
    For wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.

    Proverbs 24:5
    A wise man is full of strength, and a man of knowledge enhances his might.

    1 Kings 3:9
    Give your servant therefore an understanding mind to govern your people, that I may discern between good and evil, for who is able to govern this your great people?

    Ecclesiastes 7:12
    For the protection of wisdom is like the protection of money, and the advantage of knowledge is that wisdom preserves the life of him who has it.

    Hosea 4:6
    My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

    Job 28:28
    And he said to man, “Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to turn away from evil is understanding.”

    Proverbs 1:29
    Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord.

    So, as you can see, knowledge is obviously not the problem.
    It’s disobedience that is the problem, because of Eve not having fear of the Lord. She did not respect God. Not respecting God is exactly why Eve disobeyed. She didn’t respect Him. She didn’t heed His council. She knew what He’d said. She chose to try to be is equal instead. She chose death. She chose death because she did not fear God. She had no knowledge of good and evil before she took the fruit. What motivated Eve was not knowledge but PRIDE.
    If Eve had humility, love, and fear she never would have disobeyed God. If she had loved God she would have obeyed God. But neither her or Adam loved God. If they loved God they wouldn’t have disobeyed. If Eve had loved Adam she wouldn’t have given Adam the fruit. They didn’t know what they had. They didn’t appreciate it. That’s why the lost it. There are DEEP spiritual truths in here.

    The truest wisdom is LOVE.

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    • Hi Claire. I do understand your take on it. It is your right to say the article is wrong.
      If you gather that I am saying all things are bad then I am sorry you misconstrued what I am saying as the thing said “knowledge of good and evil”..

      Despite the fact that knowledge can be ok there are numerous times when knowledge is much undesired and not OK. Indeed, knowledge can be EVIL. The instances you quoted, from the bible, are all virtuous versions of knowledge. But sure you can find many instances, in the bible, where knowledge is undesirable and put negative things in men’s heart. The ignoble idea of the tower of babel was nimrod wanting to use knowledge “to build a tower whose heights might reach up to heaven.” True?

      Not all knowledge is good. It is OBVIOUS that the use and application of knowledge can be evil. In fact idolatry and astrology stems from the knowledge of the stars and the cosmos and Jehovah considered it as EVIL and abominable.

      PRIDE wasn’t what motivated Eve. It was POWER. The need to become as God and control life.

      Smart, intellect and intelligence and wisdom are three concepts that can actually be separated. One doesn’t automatically lead to the other. There are many instances where Understanding is lacking. Without understanding, intelligence become a fleeting illusion. As well as wisdom.
      Proverbs 3 vs 5 said it all. “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and Lean not upon thy own understanding”.
      So you see knowledge without UNDERSTANDING based on the guidance of the omnipresent, omniscience and omni potent one is a waste and an evil thing.

      So you see, quoting desirable notions and use of knowledge ignores the fact that it was knowledge that make us and take us to evil. Pursuing “wrong” knowledge leads to destruction and if you sit and think about it, isn’t many inventions evil, and they are the product of knowledge without understanding.
      Thanks for your comment.

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      • I don’t honestly give a FUCK about anything anymore. If God didn’t want us to have any knowledge then maybe the tree shouldn’t have fucking been planted in the fucking garden in the first fucking place. So you’re talking to the wrong person. Why don’t you go waste your breath on some person who cannot think for themselves?

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      • Claire, it is clear that your using those four letter words beginning with “F” is a reflection of your inner self and state of mind.

        I can assure you that even a child in kindergarten knows that there are some knowledge and actions that are detestable and shouldn’t be embraced or sought. Noticed the quote said “knowledge of of good and evil”.. does that mean there is knowledge that we should reject and knowledge that we should accept?

        Guess what? You missing the point…do you think there was an actual tree with an actual fruit that can be literally be eaten and swallowed and then go to bathroom and passed it our as faeces??

        By the way, I don’t consider it a waste of breath to reason with someone, even if I disagree with him or her, as it is by discussion instead of cussing, we can learn and grow.

        Of course, again thanks for your comments even though your response with cuss words is nonsense, I managed to take out the NON and leave the sense.

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      • Look…I am sorry I replied that way. That was stupid and mean. I’m sorry. You didn’t even have to reply to me but you did. I am in dire straits spiritually. I feel as if I am in my own personal hell, because I cannot measure up to God’s standards. I am not even close to being a good person. I’m selfish, greedy, gluttonous, perverted, lazy, angry, insolent, lying, murdering, thin skinned, stubborn, cruel, drug addicted fool. When I read the Bible I just get a huge wave of terror and a big knot in my stomach because I know that my character doesn’t remotely resemble what Jesus wants from a follower, does not resemble a child born of God. And I have tried to change. But I just can’t. I can’t just magically become another person. I have been this way since I was born. I didn’t have some “innocent” childhood, and then eventually went astray. No, I was never innocent. I was always a selfish insolent brat. I never knew God in the first place and was a liar and fornicator before the age of 5 years old if you can believe that, which you should believe because it’s true. I am an adulterer, a cheater, unfaithful, undisciplined, willful brat who even went so far as to start killing animals for her own entertainment and that is what I am and I’m being as honest. I am a shitty, despicable mongrel. I am the most self absorbed person I know and that is saying something. And even when I’m trying to be all about God to “get right with God” I soon realize that again, like before, I’m really being all about me. And I’m probably just heaping on more sins because I have not truly had a change of heart. I have autism and schizoid personality disorder so I know those are contributing factors, but these are no excuse for the sins I have knowingly and willfully commit everyday. I even tried to get baptized but I didn’t kick my drug habit even throughout, so it probably counts for nothing. Some good religious rituals have ever done me anyway. I always feel like I’m locked out, looking at everyone else from behind a thick glass wall that’s insurmountable. I cannot form close bonds with people, I couldn’t even form a close bond with my own mother as a baby. I am completely screwed up, and there is really know other way to describe the condition. Recently I watched several interviews from serial killers and realized that they are just like me, that I could relate to everything they said with total clarity, and that alone was enough to indicate just how far away I am from God.
        I don’t know why I was born or why I am like this. I fear God. I am terrified of Him. I pray and pray and pray saying I’m sorry but I just feel like I’m fooling myself. How can I know for sure if I’m really sorry? I have fooled myself before.
        I used and abused my mother my entire life. Yelled at her, cussed at her, manipulated her, lied to her, physically hurt her, emotionally battered her, and now that she’s dying from horrible cancer in her bowels, NOW, oh NOW I finally realize what I had and it’s too late. Serves me right. I didn’t deserve her anyway. In fact none of my family does. We all spat in her face. She was the only one who taught us about God and modeled a life of a Godly person. I couldn’t appreciate it because I would rather be a wanton, promiscuous whore bitch and that’s exactly what I am. Even if I try to be loyal to someone I always without a doubt start dreaming or sexual fantasies outside my relationship or look at other men, only catching myself after the fact and wondering what is wrong with me. I am a very violent person and the only relief I can get is hurting myself. I currently have a huge bruise on the side of my face because of how much I just HATE myself. But I’m still self protecting. If God can love a person like me, then He is much more loving, in a Godly way, than I can fathom being or am capable of.
        I don’t understand the Bible. I’m just going to flat out say I do not understand it. It confounds me. How can Paul say what he says in Romans 9? Is he correct? Are some people just fitted for destruction? Are some people just passed over because God wants to show His wrath to most and His mercy to a beloved remnant? That makes me feel so sad, angry and bitter. And Genesis too, it doesn’t seem fair at all to me. It really does seem like a set up. I have tried looking at it another way but I can’t, because I cannot deny God’s total sovereignty. I mean even Jesus says that not a sparrow falls without the Father. Well? I realize the implications of that statement and it makes me shudder in horror. And I’m supposed to agree with this? This seems wrong to me. I would never in my wildest cruelty bring beings into existence that had weakness, test them, and then if they failed let them produce billions of fatally flawed progeny that I will eventually punish with unquenchable fire for all eternity. I cannot fathom it. I certainly wouldn’t have created me. I look at me and weep. I’m not even physically attractive, let alone “beautiful on the inside”. Ha! I am nothing but a devil, if anything.
        I have tried talking to God again and again and I never get any response. In fact, it was when I was 5 and we’d moved into a new house, and I was yet again being lectured about how I had no conscience. I don’t have one. I have to think about the logical consequences of something before I do it. The whole sense of right and wrong, I never had. Or if I had, then it was so faint, I couldn’t hear it and didn’t care anyway. So my dad is lecturing me after he’s beaten me, and I’m sitting there and ask him about God and how do I know if God is real. I mean even at 5 I had no connection with God. Even as young as 2 years old I began having my first devious thoughts, I admit. So my dad told me to pray for God to reveal Himself to me. He told me this story that He had asked God to reveal Himself to him at the age of 18 and God hurled Him across the room into a wall. I was really scared of that, but I thought since my dad was still alive, God could still be trusted. So I asked. and asked. and asked.
        Well, long story short It’s been 30 years.
        I’m not completely blind. I believe Jesus is the Son of God. I believe in one God. I believe that these times are indeed the end of days. But a goat becoming a sheep? Me becoming a child of God? I would have to have a new brain and a new heart. I would have to be very literally born again. My sins are piled to Heaven and my heart feels like stone.
        I am begging you, please pray for me. At least you have a ministry, you must be doing something right. Please, please, if you will, tell God I am sorry and I want to be reborn. I mean it. I cannot sleep anymore, I can’t enjoy a good meal, I can’t read the Bible without paranoia and a black fear gripping me to the point where I scream in terror. I can’t do this anymore. I can’t go on like this. I don’t want to kill myself but what choice do I have? If I stay alive, I will sin more. Yet I do not want to put the Lord God to the test either and sin that way. I am afraid of living and afraid of dying. I can’t even go for more than 5 minutes without some mental sin. On top of all of this, I am deathly afraid of having committed the unpardonable sin. I have accused God of being evil several times at the top of my lungs no less. I have had horrible thoughts about the Holy Spirit, though I have tried to suppress these thoughts. And then not too long ago I was doing my drugs and feeling really guilty, so I was trying to pray out loud and I felt all these evil thoughts about the HS come into my head and I almost said the entire thought out loud. I stopped myself before I said the word “spirit” but I was so close, so incredibly close and it was like I had no control over my mouth or thoughts whatsoever, like someone else had taken over and I was lost in madness.
        I also just woke up from a twisted dream where I was a homosexual and making advances on an unwilling woman. I am a MESS. Please GOD help me!
        What do I do!!!!????? Please help me. Please pray for me. Please, anyone!

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      • Hi Claire. Thanks for the response. Your apologies are accepted and I do appreciate your sharing your inner feelings and experiences with me. I do empathize and sympathize as I too was a very rebellious and rude child. My mom use to beat me “now” for things I just did and will do in the future as she was sure that in a little while I was gonna do something wrong.

        Please don’t beat up yourself too much and do forgive your self as well. Indeed accepting our shortcomings is very good. It is the beginning of healing.

        This might sound blasphemous but if you noticed even Christ accepted and realized he was wrong in telling the lady of Samaria that “he cannot throw the children’s food to the dogs” after the lady corrected him and let him know that even the “dogs get the crumbs from the children’s table.

        You know, the Old Testament said that any one who committed adultery was to be stoned to death yet Christ said to the people who wanted to stone the woman who was caught committing adultery: let him without sin cast the first stone”. No one flung a stone as “we have all sinned and come short of the glory of god”
        You know I am like one of Christ’s disciple: Doubtful Thomas. I have to feel and see in order to believe. I know that many things are beyond my comprehension so i do submit to the Serenity Prayer: Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

        You mentioned Romans 9 and the idea was that no race or creed has any claim to righteousness. Indeed there are many good souls in all races and there are some sheep who are not of the same fold.

        You do make me blush when you ask of me to pray for you and the idea that I have a ministry. I do not have a ministry and I haven’t even been to a church to worship in more than 40 years. I believe that if someone believe Christ is Shiloh then the usefulness of the church is redundant as Christ would now be both high priest and king. “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah until Shiloh comes..and he shall pay for all sins so the role of the church as an institution or building is redundant and “where ever tow or more are gathered praising the lord, that is the church’. It could be in a rum bar as long as the spirit is divine and not alcohol.

        However, i want to share this verse with you:
        Numbers 6:24-26. The Lord bless you and keep you: the Lord make His face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you: the Lord lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace;

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      • And I really do deeply appreciate you replying. man, it is good to talk to you. It is good to talk to someone who cares. I could hug you.

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  3. Also, also Clifton, I do not understand still why God would allow Eve to eat the fruit. I cannot imagine myself as a parent for example, allowing my child to touch a hot stove. I couldn’t allow it. I would prevent them from touching it, and I would carefully explain exactly why it was bad and what would happen, and all the consequences. If I was omniscient and I knew some stranger was in my house trying to get my kid to touch the stove, I would throw him out. I wouldn’t allow that stranger to confuse my daughter and damn the entire human race. Okay? Do you see where I am coming from? I have a serious issue with the Bible as a whole, which unfortunately means I have a serious issue with God, if the Bible is truly the Word of God. If that’s Jesus….I thought Jesus loved us. I grew up thinking Jesus loved everyone. My church taught that, it taught Universalism. It was a Catholic church with some really nice pastors. But the Bible itself does not teach Universalism. I don’t get that same warm, loving feeling I got from church when I read the Bible. When I read about how God threw Adam and Eve out of the Garden and let them have kids on top of their disobedience, I am left shaking my head. So what, so some remnant in the future could be salvaged? You say you don’t agree with the serpent seed theory and I’m saying you’re wrong. The sin wasn’t sex persay. The sin HAD to be both Pride, (and yes Power I don’t disagree with you there) and sex, but with Satan himself. Why do I say so? Because the Bible itself supports this in many verses and many books. God’s children are by definition, those he puts His Spirit into and gives them re-birth. Essentially we are all damned from the get go and it is only God’s mercy for specific individuals that results in their being reborn.
    Here are some scriptures to back me up.

    Who was Cain’s father?
    1 John 3:12 KJV: Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.

    Who is the progenitor of the bad seed?
    Matthew 13:24-25
    Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
    25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

    Matthew 13:38-42
    The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Who decides who is reborn?
    John 3:8
    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Does God care for the goats?
    Matthew 13:12-15
    12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

    13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

    14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Does God really love everyone?
    Romans 9:18-23
    18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    Now in all this, I am not saying God cannot do as He pleases. He surely can. He is God after all. But, why allow the wicked one (Satan) to have any children? And even if this be a figure of speech, why save some and not others? If Paul’s answer is all we have, then how can we accept that God wants to show His wrath to some and mercy to others to make his power known???? Really!? To make his power known!? Is that all this is about!? Is that why we were created!? How is that LOVE!???

    So I agree with you that the sin was a desire for power on Eve’s and Adam’s part, and a desire to thwart God’s creation for Satan’s part. But WHY or WHY or WHY would God allow this to happen, and lose some of His children whom he had formed in the womb? Why would God choose Jacob over Esau? Even Paul says “because God can do what He wants because He’s got the power” and to me that is a not only a non-answer that is an unacceptable answer, and certainly not indicative of any kid of Love I know.

    What is the biblical definition of love anyway? If it is so far removed from emotional love, then how could it be called love and not simply authority? When John says God is love, the Greek word used for love is “agape” which translates to charity. Well, charity to me is fair and even. I’m an American and in my country, what’s good is when everyone is treated as equals and everyone gets an equal piece of the pie at the very least (though if they work hard they can have more pie).

    Am I not even allowed to ask questions? Why did God give us brains in the first place and allow us to eat from the Tree is that wasn’t His plan all along? How can ANYTHING happen outside of God’s totally Sovereign will? Even if God allows something, then by virtue of allowing it, it is in alignment with His will, even if said thing is on paper against His will. Because He has the power to stop anything and start anything. I understand the implications of an omnipotent, omniscient God.
    Why would God both create peace and evil like Isiah claims? Why darkness?

    I am he that prepared light, and formed darkness; who make peace, and create evil; I am the Lord God, that does all these things.

    And yes the word in Hebrew is “evil”. There is no way around it. Even if you mistranslate and dumb it down to mean disaster or calamity- what is good or peaceful or benevolent about creating disasters or calamities???

    Is this not the same God who also says to us that we should not do evil? That we should not cause violence? That we should be peaceful? Why are we held to a different moral standard? Why is it that God can pick and choose and drown and burn us and if we act that way we would surely be punished. There is a serious discrepancy between the Bible’s claims that God is Just and Love and all this, and then I see things that happen that really make me question that. Unless our definitions of good and evil are COMPLETELY askew? Is good simply obeying God and evil simply disobeying God? Is there no other way to know what is good or evil?

    The more I read the Bible the more confused I am. Is that on purpose? Is God simply trying to confound me with all of the Bible’s contradictions to shame people who look into it?

    Is there any way of speaking to God directly? I’ve prayed but I don’t get a reply. If God has shut me out, how does He expect me to have a relationship with Him???

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    • Hi again Claire. I definitely do not believe the eating of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was sex. Sex was made to be done by all living things… insects, crustaceans, reptiles, mammals and birds. The story of the forbidden fruit is symbolic. Not a real tree with roots and leaves. Power is the quest “to control ones destiny and being like a god” without GOD is the evil intention that was being discouraged.
      One could look at it that “God” is a jealous god and doesn’t like when man or any creature in creation can “get along without god”.

      In regards to allowing someone to do something that is harmful can be looked at from the point of view that Adam and Eve were told that the day they try to control their own destiny “become like god and knowing good and evil” they will die.

      If you tell your little child not to touch the hot stove as it will burn him or her and such child went ahead and touch it and get burnt what can you as mom do but just shake your head and say ” i did warn you.’ now pay the consequence.. A caring mom would even try and soothe the burn for the child.

      What I know is that even without the bible evil is a wicked concept and selfishness is different from self interest and selflessness.

      The question is as proposed by Marxist Leninist : did god made man in his own image or did man made god in his own image?
      And what is the image if god made man. It definitely could not be a physical image as the creator is a spirit so it has to be the image of intelligence and wisdom…but seem man has intellect and little or no intelligence and wisdom.

      Another truth is that if we truly love each other then that is what it is all about: a father goes to war but a mother care for her kids.

      I too at times question the idea that an omniscient, omni potent and omnipresent god would make or allow undesirable things to occur but that might be the novelty of creation… the idea of free will. “Freedom of action and speech I can guarantee you but freedom after action and speech I cannot guarantee you.” Responsibility and authority are flip side of the same coin.

      I do agree with you about the idea of who is special and who is not. If you look carefully you will realize that the entire old testament was written as a history book of only ONE MAN.. that is Abraham and one of his two kids Isaac and one of Isaac’s two kids Jacob. and of Jacob’s 13 children (12 boys and a girl). So the bible in itself is racist, misogynistic, supports ethnic cleansing and filled with male chauvinism tendencies. Even god is a male. God is seen as a jealous and at times punitive god yet when it rains it doesn’t go on only one’s man’s house top.
      I must admit I don’t understand a lot of things but the Bible is not necessarily the word of god but the words of a set of “men” whose authority is ” and the Lord said”.

      Hopefully we can all seek and we shall find, knock and it will be opened to us and ask and we shall get.

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  4. And if I’m wrong about the serpent seed, maybe that is a case of me and others taking the Bible too literally. But then, how should we understand it? How can we decide which part is figurative language and which part is to be taken at face value? And if this knowledge is lost on me and on many other people, why doesn’t God explain it to us today? Why punish us for a lack of understanding? I am trying my best to understand God’s will. I am trying my best to be an obedient goat who desperately wants to be a sheep, but sins time and time again anyway.
    You understand my pain right? My life is in the hands of the Living God! I have no power to save myself, Clifton! Only God can save me, and yet here I am begging and pleading and getting only silence. So does God love me?

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  5. Since no one else comments, we might as well get down to a discussion if you have the time, Clifton.
    I assert again, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND the Bible. I’m not going to sit here and claim I do.
    That’s why I have questions. That’s why obviously I disagreed with you. If I understood it, I probably wouldn’t have questions or be making invalid statements, would I?
    I just came across this page online which explains some things to me:
    https://www.gotquestions.org/is-God-evil.html

    But still, I arrive at a strange conclusion and a question. God is omniscient. God knew that a majority of people He created would sin against Him and burn in hot magma for all eternity. *excuse me while I lose my sanity* Okay, then why create them in the first place?
    If I was a computer programmer and Ai engineer for example, and I also had the amazing ability to foresee every future event before it happened, and I knew that creating an AI would result in chaos and murder down the line, I’m telling you flat out, no matter what good came of that I could not in my conscience, even as seared as it is from what I revealed to you above, I would not create those beings.
    And if God needs nothing, and is totally self satisfied, then for what purpose create a majority of flawed damned creatures for a little remnant to enjoy eternal bliss with you while the others serve as little more than kindling?
    Why does God want glory?
    Why does God need pleasure?
    Why does He do all His pleasure if He is so complete within Himself?
    How can a good loving God be satisfied with a majority of His creations suffering torment in unquenchable fire forever?
    I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, even the devil honestly. I’d rather just snuff him out. But the Bible doesn’t say God snuffs people out, despite the erroneous claims that Hell is some kind of annihilation. How can people weep, gnash their teeth or have no rest day or night if they are simply annihilated? Doesn’t compute and it doesn’t match Jesus’ description of the rich man’s eternal conscious torment in Hades.
    What point is there to an eternal Hell anyway? How can anyone, anywhere, at anytime agree that this is a good thing? I say again, I wouldn’t even do it to Hitler. I’d give Him a new heart, that’s what I would do. I would fix his broken brain. I would lovingly enlighten Hitler to the truth. Not throw him in a furnace. I really CAN’T understand that.
    And if God won’t speak to me about these issues and answer my questions, to whom shall I go? Whom shall I ask? Will I die like this, wavering and terrified? Why won’t He have mercy on me and explain what I don’t understand? I want to know! I want to understand!

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    • I don’t know why an omniscient omnipotent omni present being would do things that would include a lot of misfits and very few proper fits..
      Maybe using the computer AI designer ability ..doing it for his own pleasure and to prove that there can not be any like the creator.
      The earth and its fullness is set up in such away that all nature works on a plan and a rhythm. interfere with the rhythm at one’s own peril.

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